Hello
I have just set up my Flukso and it seem to be working fine on small loads but when I turn on my A/C (big 3 phase unit) the power measurment seem way to high.
Will I have to set the line voltage to a lower value?
I live in Australia and we have 240 volts and our 3 phase is 415 volts. Has the fact when my A/C is on it is using all phases at 415 volt divided by 3. Will that cause it to show a high reading?
Thanks Brad.
Hi Brad,
What would be the expected A/C power consumption? And what value are you reading on the Flukso chart?
Cheers,
-Bart.
Hello Bart
I believe it should be around 7500 watt but on the flukso chart it reads about 10500 watt
Cheers Brad
what voltage did you fill in the flukso configuration ?
(should be 240 volts)
Yes I set up the flukso configuration with 240 volts.
Any ideas yet?
There might be a measurement error for inductive loads due to a non-unity power factor. However, the difference seems rather large. Are you sure you did not hook up one of the clamps to the neutral wire instead of the phase?
Yes I am pretty sure I connected them correctly. I have 4 wires coming out of my meter, red ,white, blue and black. I connected the clamps to red, white and blue. Is that correct?
Has it got any thing to do with when using the 3 phase A/C the voltage or something is not the full 240 volt? ie 415volt divided by each phase?
I played around with flukso tonight whilst my 3 phase A/C was on and and I have had to adjust my voltage in the sensor set up to 160 volt to get it to display the same as my real usage.
Why is this ? What have I done wrong or what is the problem?
David did some googling on 3-phase wiring. Apparently, there are several old/new standards of colours for Australia. In Europe, the blue color is assigned to the neutral wire.
You could check the markings on the main circuit breaker to determine which of the four is your neutral wire.
http://www.powercor.com.au/docs/pdf/Contractors%20and%20Suppliers/CP%20P...
I think yellow can be white also.
Put an AC voltmeter across the connections and report the voltage back here.
* Be Careful*
Bazzle
I am sure my black is neutral
Checked voltage between each colour (red,white and blue) and neutral (black) and got 241 volts each.
Checked between phases,ie between white and blue and got 420 volt
white and red and got 420 volt
blue and red and got 420 volt
I have set the voltage on flukso to 161 volt and 3 phase and it seem to match my energy meters usage quite well.
What have I done wrong?
Then I guess it's safe to conclude that your A/C seems to have a poor power factor. With a current-only measurement we cannot compensate for this. For an accurate A/C reading, you'd have to insert a 3-phase DIN-rail energy meter and hook it up to one of the FLM's pulse ports. The DIN-rail meter installation will be a lot more intrusive though.
I have now set my voltage on all three phases to 240 volt and that seems to be close to perfect for all but my 3 phase a/c. I believe that when the a/c is on it reads about 33% to high. I don't think my a/c has a bad power factor, I feel that flukso is not measuring correctly when a 3 phase unit is used. Is there any thing else that can be done?
Cheers Brad.
I was not happy with the mag loop sensors on my solar output so I have now changed both my mains consumption and Solar input to Pulse output kw/h meters. Readings have changed quite a bit across the bottom and top of my usage.
http://www.schnap.com.au/kilowatt-hour-meter/single-phase-electric-kilow...
I only have 1 phase but they do a 3 phase unit too like Icaurus mentioned.
http://www.schnap.com.au/kilowatt-hour-meter/three-phase-electric-kilowa...
Bazzle
Note: No affiliation with above co but their service and advise is good
Thanks Bazzle.
I have fitted one of the Schnaps pulse output kw/h meter to measure the solar output and that works spot on, (you are correct in saying their service is good. Price was great too.) but it will be very difficult to fit the 3 phase unit in my switch board.
I have adjusted Flukso output using the rule in PV Output so that anything over 7000 watt it takes 33% off and that seems to be very close to my meter reading.
It just would be nice for the Flukso graph and PV Output graph to be the same as each other and more important for the Flukso to be closer to the usage of my power meter.
Cheers Brad
Hi Guys,
Sorry to dig up an old thread - I've purchased a flukso and its currently in transit. I'm about to purchase the above pulse output kwh meters that bazzle listed.
The only thing i need to confirm before I order the din meters, is with regards to the known bug in R232:
"Real-time readings are not correct for pulse inputs with meter constants that are is not an integer fraction, see this forum post. So constants like 0.5, 0.25, 0.2, 0.1 will work correctly with the real-time interface, while 0.625 and 0.4 will cause bogus values. This bug does not impact the readings on api.fukso.net."
Does anyone know if these pulse meters would have the correct constants so that the bug doesnt affect me?
Thanks in advance
Adam
They will be ok as they are normally 1000/kw (1) or 2000 k/w (0.5) pulses.
Be careful. I have the exact same 3-phase meter from Schnaps. It produces 400 pulses per kWh, meaning that I'm getting fantasy readings on the minute tab, and imprecise logging on PVOutput.org.
Michi.
Damn, I bought it on Friday - it's in transit at the moment... along with the flukso (without clamps as i was planning on using the din meters/pulse)
Is there any way around it or anything that I can do? or am i going to be stuck with a $200 Din kwh meter that is virtually useless? along with a $200 flukso that isn't going to be able to monitor anything with any better accuracy then if i just stared at the meter and guessed random numbers? I bought it to be able to track my usage and generation along with being able to monitor things as i turn them on/off to track down power hungry devices.
You'll have to excuse my reply, i'm pretty disappointed at the moment. I've been excitedly waiting, watching my flukso trek half way around the world on its way to me (Fedex parcel tracking) and I know its my own doing in ordering a Din meter that's incompatible. I'd like to think im pretty tech savvy and can pick up most things reasonably quickly, but honestly the bit about it having issues with constants and integer fractions is well over my head :(
Well, I've been disappointed for a year now. No firmware patch in sight :-(
Michi.
http://www.schnap.com.au/kilowatt-hour-meter/three-phase-electric-kilowa...
You can return, no questions asked.
My post with the counts above is for the single phase unit. Can you use 3 of them instead?
I read in the notes for the schnap 3 phase :
Pulse output rate (pins 8 & 9)
CT type 1600imp/kWh
Directly connect 400imp/kWh
CT Changing-Ratio Programmable 27 types
Perhaps one can change the number of pulses / kWh on them ?
If you use 3 items single phase, you need also 3 free puls inputs.
Thanks for the replies all
Bazzle - I will most likely have to return it, which is a bit of a PITA as i've already booked the sparky to come early this week. I'll have to rush to see if I can find another one that will work (and i was hoping to keep them both the same brand)
I had thought about the possibility of sending it back and changing for 3 x single phase units, but then I would need 4 pulse inputs and as I ordered the gas and water probes to go with the flukso, I think i'd run out of inputs..
Michi - Damn that doesnt sound too promising. Will the 3 phase schnap be usefull for anything or? By the sound of it, i would have been better off buying one of the cheap clamp style energy monitors so i could at least track down power hungry devices as i switch them on/off
Fluc - When I ordered it I looked through the specs/notes but clearly didnt understand it, the 400impulse per kwh means more to me now. Whilst i now know that 400 impulses wont work, i dont know how to go from 0.5 0.25 0.2 etc to x amount of impulse's per kwh to know if it will work.
I'm not sure if Bart or any of the flukso developers still monitor the forums, but if so is there any chance of a firmware fix for this coming up any time soon? or is there any settings within the flukso that we can change ourselves, to counter for the incorrect reading?
Cheers
Adam
"Michi - Damn that doesnt sound too promising. Will the 3 phase schnap be usefull for anything or?"
The Schnap will still accurately measure total consumption. But the instantaneous values vary by as much as +- 20%, so the minute tab reports rubbish. Because PVOutput takes snapshot readings, the readings it gets are also out by the same amount, making the PVOutput consumption graph look like it was drawn by a drunken snail. See here and here for previous discussions.
"By the sound of it, i would have been better off buying one of the cheap clamp style energy monitors so i could at least track down power hungry devices as i switch them on/off"
Not really. The current clamps are really inaccurate if you have reactive loads, such as an air conditioner. To measure individual devices, you can buy a consumption meter for around $20 at Jaycar or Dick Smith. These are useful (at least for appliances that aren't permanently wired in).
Cheers,
Michi.
Adamcowin, as you write above:
"Real-time readings are not correct for pulse .....
.....This bug does not impact the readings on api.fukso.net." Like what is written for the R232 firmware.
So i think this 3 phase schnap will still be useful.
The real time readings, are those that can be seen in the Minute tab, if you are in the same network of the FLM ? I can not see this, but that’s another topic ....
Hi All,
Both the single and three phase din meters turned up today - Flukso turned up yesterday :D. New toys to play with!
I'm still unsure about if I should keep the 3 phase din meter or return it, given the bug in the flukso with reading this din meter (400imp/kWh)
As mentioned above, the notes on the 3 phase din meter mention the following:
Pulse output rate (pins 8 & 9)
CT type 1600imp/kWh <---
Directly connect 400imp/kWh
CT Changing-Ratio Programmable 27 types <----
From the manual of the 3 phase meter, it mentions this:
Please set the CT Changing-Ratio after installation otherwise the CT Meter will count the second energy consumption by default Ratio ( 5:5).
Procedures of setting the CT Changing- Ratio of the CT Meter:
1. wiring the meter correctly according to Diagram 3 and 4
2. The meter will do auto-detect first when the power is on, and the LCD shows “88888.8.8.”
3. Press the PRG button after auto-detect, then you can set the CT changing- ratio. The LCD shows “-“
4. Press the SEL button, and there are 27 Ratios (“5:5” to “7500: 5” ) you can choose from.
5. After choosing one CT Changing-Ratio, press the PRG button to confirm and the ration setting is complete. The LCD display “-END”.
This is way paste my level of electrical knowledge. Can anyone translate this for me haha - Does it mean that I can change the impulse/kWh ratio so that it changes from 400imp/kWh to one thats compatible with the flukso?
Or would I be better off just sending it back and trying to find one that isnt affected by the flukso bug in 232?
Also @ Bart - Any updates on the real time reading bug in 232 for constants like 0.4 etc? If its possible the bug may be fixed semi-soon, then i'll keep the 3 phase din meter and wait for the update/fix
Cheers
Adam
".....This bug does not impact the readings on api.fukso.net."
I would disagree with that. See the image below
http://www.triodia.com/staff/michi/images/Flukso.jpg
The fluctuations you see there are the result of the broken calculations, and they extend over periods of hours.
Adam, the CT setup for the meter doesn't affect the 400 pulse per kWh output, which cannot be changed. The CT setup is for scenarios where the meter isn't wired in but measures via current clamps.
Michi.
Thanks for the reply Michi
Understand now on the CT setup, wishful thinking that I might be able to change the imp/kWh rate.
I'm still hopeful that Bart may see this thread and be able to update us, as to if it will get resolved any time soon - or if we're going to be better off purchasing a different meter.
Having a look at the graph you posted above, I can see thats pretty bad... like 100-200 watts fluctuation. I'm bound to get the exact same results with this Din meter and the flukso - making it virtually useless for monitoring consumption.
Although they say it does not affect the api.flukso.net, it seems that regardless the fluctuations make it impossible to be able to know how much you are using and i'd imagine the PVoutput graphs/results would be equally as useless for finding out what is using power "now" (as in wandering around turning stuff on and off - Not with a 5minute delay)
Maybe theres a setting somewhere either in the flukso or in PVoutput that can counter the flukso bug and straighten out the usage? IE maybe a rule in PVoutput or ?
Cheers
Adam
The totals over a day are still very accurate. It's just that the instantaneous readings are all screwed up.
I don't think there is anything that can be done to fix this at the Flukso or PVOutput end. The problem is simply that, unless the pulse rate is a binary fraction or multiple of 1000, the Flukso reports these fluctuations, because of the way it samples the data. The up-and-down graph is the result of aliasing between the mismatched sample rates.
Cheers,
Michi.
Michi, what do you mean with the instantaneous readings ? Are these the minute readings or simply the readings in "Watt" ?
Do you see those fluctuations in the hour or day readings also ?
Cheers,
Fluc